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Thread: Daiwa Kiyose 43M-F & Nissin 450ZX 2 Way

  1. #1
    charter adam's Avatar
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    Daiwa Kiyose 43M-F & Nissin 450ZX 2 Way

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    Daiwa 43M-F & Nissin 450ZX 2 Way


    I am not an evaluator, I can't do it, I am human and I have a natural tendency to be biased towards a brand that I know and spend my own money on.

    But I want a good rod based on experience and not my bias towards a company.

    That being said, the postman brought both rods of which I signed for and they are unboxed next to me.

    One has obviously been used, the Daiwa, the Nissin appears to be brand new.

    I am looking for a rod to catch rainbow trout in a large western river in the 20" range, in essence, a big water big fish Tenkara type fishing rod. This river is 4.5 hours away by freeway. I'll be driving it during the winter months and probably alone. Winter is my "off season" for Tenkara. My favorite streams are blanketed with snow, access has to wait until winter is over as all roads that lead to my favorite streams are not plowed or maintained. So I am going back to my usual winter angling spot, the Colorado River at Lees Ferry.

    I've made an inquiry to the two people that I believe know best about a variety of rods outside of the Tenkara envelope, Chris Stewart and John Vetterli. Both of them weighed in on a short list of rods, lines and techniques.

    I'm going to ask both of these guys to ring in on this post as I want to gather all information about these two rods here in one thread. We have discussed both of these rods to some degree but I want to focus all attention to detail here.

    First, I would like to do a cursory search of the Internet for Daiwa Kiyose 43M-F & Nissin 450 ZX 2 Way.

    I found the below links which interested me.

    Chris Stewart: Nissin 450ZX 2 Way & Daiwa Kiyose 43M-F

    Tom Davis: Diawa Kiyose 43M-F

    Tom, Chris and John are all members of this forum and can further lend their experience if they choose to do so.

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    Any comments guys?

    Chris "gulp" would you care to give me the lowdown on the common cents of both rods? Not kidding, I would like to understand how you would compare the two rods agains each other using the system of your choice. What rod is stiffer?

    John, could you tell me what line I should use on these rods? I would like to use as long of a line as possible. I will try both Tenkara and known dead drift nymphing techniques.

    Tom, anything you can add?

    If you guys ring in, I may ask questions about what you present.

    Soon as I find out a little bit about lines, I'll construct them and or use one of the suggestions.

    I'll take the rods out to yard cast next.


  2. #2
    John Vetterli's Avatar
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    Adam, try the 16' line I built for you a while back. When you say long line, how long are you talking about? I might suggest one of my 20' lines to get started. I can build one that will work well for both rods or if you want, I can build one specifically designed for one rod or the other. Both rods cast level lines very well. But for large rivers where wind is a constant companion, I would follow Erik's advice about my furled fluorocarbon lines. The added mass of those lines punch through wind much better than level lines especially at any length approaching 20'.

    (I am not trying to drum up line orders here, I can barely keep up with the orders I get now. Just trying to provide options to think about)

    Also, you have 1 rod with a grip added and one without. I like the tennis racquet grip tape to give the grip area a little more volume. I find it more comfortable for long days of fishing/casting. Let us know what you find when you try out both grip types.

    John
    Wabi sabi, man, wabi sabi.
    Don't fight it.
    Just embrace the imperfection.

    John
    笑山

  3. #3
    charter adam's Avatar
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    John, I'll try the line you made me.

    I do not have the money to have you make a couple of lines, I'm using your experience to prevent myself from purchasing a rod that I won't like or use.

    Long line? A long of a line that you think the rod will handle. YOU are in charge here, I'm asking what I should start with.

    I can figure this out on my own, eventually, but what I'm trying not to do is re-invent the wheel. Most of the time what I see is that people work independently and all usually come up with pretty much the same conclusion.

    Once I zero in on a rod, I will have you make a line for it. If you have one I could borrow to check out, that would be cool.

    I have all level lines that are worth owning and can set myself up with that no problem.

    Thanks for ringing in John.


  4. #4
    John Vetterli's Avatar
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    I will send you a 20' line to try out. It will be what I call GP or General Purpose line. It is a custom line but not tuned to a specific rod model. I can't get it mailed until Tuesday if that is ok.

    John
    Wabi sabi, man, wabi sabi.
    Don't fight it.
    Just embrace the imperfection.

    John
    笑山

  5. #5
    I use a 20' and 24' line with those rods most of the time. The Nissin can handle longer lines as the tip section doesn't have as much of a fulcrum as the Daiwa does. I just don't like the Daiwa in the wind, regardless of line on it. However, the softe tip of the Daiwa allows for a softer presentation. Both rods are zoom rods, and I suggest fishing at the shorter version while only extending the rod when you have a fish on. With the right pull on the fish you can skip mid-teen range fish across the top of the water.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by adam View Post

    Chris "gulp" would you care to give me the lowdown on the common cents of both rods? Not kidding, I would like to understand how you would compare the two rods agains each other using the system of your choice. What rod is stiffer?
    No need to "gulp." I know you are not a fan of a static measurement system - and for good reason. It doesn't tell you everything you would want to know. It does tell you something, though, and is easy to do across a variety of rods, and easy for anyone to do with his own rods so he can get a sense of what an unknown rod might be like.

    I measured the 43MF at 28 pennies and 33 pennies (the latter at full extension).
    The medium 450ZX was 30.5 and 30.5.

    That tells you that the two rods are roughly comparable with respect to overall capability, but that the Daiwa has a relatively softer tip section while having more reserve backbone than the Nissin. It also explains why ERiK is not a fan of the 43MF - I believe he feels the tip is too soft relative to the rest of the rod, so the curve under load is not smooth enough (not really a hinging effect, but in that direction). I suspect he'll jump in to correct me if I have misrepresented his feelings. I like the 43MF, but I fish it with a much shorter, lighter line than he does, so the relatively softer tip to me is a positive attribute.

    If you only cast the 20' line that John sends you, I suspect you may also prefer the Nissin. If you cast a shorter, lighter line, in order to keep more of your line off the water, you may prefer the Daiwa. My initial thoughts on the 43MF were that it was a rod that would fill the niches of both the Yamame and the Amago, and be better than either one of them. I didn't see it as a rod for long heavy lines.

    Edited to add: ERiK's post came in while I was writing but I may have captured his feelings well enough that I don't have to completely rewrite mine.

  7. #7
    charter adam's Avatar
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    John, take your time, really. I will take care of your line and you will get it back. I'm sure that after spending some time with it, I will have some input but you will be making me a line for one of these rods.

    Thank you Chris, I understand.

    I am learning to be a little less stubborn, I might learn something.

    However, I am learning more about Tenkara by staying focused on Tenkara.

    In my view, this topic has little to do with Tenkara.

    99% of the fish I catch at Lees Ferry are nymphing i.e. dredging the bottom from six inches to seven feet.

    My favorite rod was a 9' 7-weight medium action rod that had a worn out tip (the tip was soft) The soft tip helped protect light tippets but the backbone of the rod helped fight fish and shoot line. I could nearly cast most of the line with a big indicator and split. This is for reference.

    I've already caught lots of large trout (18" and above is large to me) on a Ito and ZE. I got it.

    But I want a little more backbone, a little stiffer rod.

    ERiK, I get the extending the zoom for a fight. In Japan, zoom in for tight, zoom out for reach, I also do that.

    I'm listening to you guys, I am building a profile for both rods.

    We have Gila Sucker fishing close to home. In an hour, I can be catching freshwater bonefish. The technique to catch them is very much like what I use at Lees Ferry.

    That will be my first water outing and I'll actually make my decisions there.

    p.s. cool avatar (hanko) Chris, nice one.


  8. #8
    Adam,

    I'm not sure I have too much more to add. I like the 43MF. It casts great and is quite light. I also have a Daiwa LT44SF and by way of comparison it feels stiffer in action to me than the 43MF. They are both, however, are rated 33 penny (43MF at 4.3 m) which gives them a Rod Flex Index of around 7.5. This puts them both squarely in the 7:3 rod range. They are both power rods.

    -Tom

    Screen shot 2013-06-29 at 3.19.26 PM.jpg
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    Tom Davis
    Teton Tenkara

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by tvdavis View Post
    Adam,

    I'm not sure I have too much more to add. I like the 43MF. It casts great and is quite light. I also have a Daiwa LT44SF and by way of comparison it feels stiffer in action to me than the 43MF. They are both, however, are rated 33 penny (43MF at 4.3 m) which gives them a Rod Flex Index of around 7.5. This puts them both squarely in the 7:3 rod range. They are both power rods.

    -Tom

    Screen shot 2013-06-29 at 3.19.26 PM.jpg

    Tom just curious about the statement regarding the penny rating, flex index number and the x:y rating. Not trying to be facetious just to understand more clearly. My impression has always been that the x:y rating is a measure of the "kick point" of the rod rather than as a measure of stiffness. So that you'd need to look at the rod and note at which point upon it's length the inflection point lies - a function of taper rather than over all stiffness.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    .... My impression has always been that the x:y rating is a measure of the "kick point" of the rod rather than as a measure of stiffness. So that you'd need to look at the rod and note at which point upon it's length the inflection point lies - a function of taper rather than over all stiffness.

    I think this is true overall, but in general rods that are 7:3 are "stiffer" in casting action than rods that are 5:5. That is why 7:3 begin to flex further up the rod than a 5:5 -- they are stiffer overall. I have yet to see a rod that is categorized as a 5:5 that has a very high penny rating, but I have used rods that are categorized at 7:3 that are not "true" 7:3's and have a lower penny rating. For instance, the Nissin 7:3 rods I have used have a inflection point further down the rod than the Daiwa 7:3 rods. This bears out in both penny rating and rod flex index, RFI (which just adjusts for the length of the rod). The x:y rating of a rod is so subjective; the Common Cents Scale penny rating and the Rod Flex Index are attempts (granted weak attempts) at trying to objectively categorize rods without getting too overly complicated, yet be reproducible. I guess you could make a rod that is stiff over 75% of the rod then have a super flexible 25% tip section so that when you test with pennies you'd get a lower penny rating -- but that would be a really weird rod without a smooth load curve or casting arc!

    All of this is moot however when it comes to buying a rod. Always, always, always try the rod before you buy -- if at all possible -- since not all RFI 6 rods cast, balance, or "feel" the same. I think for this reason we share our rods with our tenkara friends.

    -Tom
    Tom Davis
    Teton Tenkara

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